Standing capabilities and workarounds
Standing capabilities and workarounds
Current Doll Sweet dolls can respectively should not stand on their own feet. They forgot how to stand when Doll Sweet introduced the softer silicone blend. The doll's heels have the same soft silicone blend as the rest of the body, so it bends under the weight and the metal foot plate can cut through the silicone.
DS dolls with the silicone blend from 2014 and before were supposed to be able to stand on their own feet, at least for short periods of time. Though it was never a recommended practice, DS always recommended to use the hang kit for support. So from the manufacturer's point of view, nothing changed in regard to standing with the introduction of the softer silicone blend. For owners it just become more "challenging" to figure out new workarounds.
The official suggestion from DS was always and still is to use the hang kit and a doll stand to 'simulate' standing.
However, the foot plate design used by DS is not weaker than the one used by Sanhui (silicone) or Doll Forever (TPE) - and both claim standing capability for short periods of time for their dolls without a special skeleton. If you are willing to accept a certain risk, you can put a DS on her own feet shortly; she won't explode right away. But some kind of 'minor' injury is very likely sooner or later; maybe not the first time she stands on her own feet, but maybe the third of fifth time. It's pretty the same what applies to most TPE dolls without the standig skeleton with screws - you can put them on their own feet for a very short period of time, but you risk damage. And if you want your doll to wear high heels, the standing skeleton design with screws either self destructs, or at least ruins the shoes.
There are a lot of possible or existing workarounds for DS to make them stand.
- For example, 'mi6c' is contemplating about a new and larger foot plate with more support for the heels; but this will be a deep mod, requiring to cut the foot open, enucleate some silicone and replace parts of the skeleton.
- 'haremlover' has a customized DS-167 with with screws in the soles of the feet, similar to Jinshan's standing skeleton; I think she has the same standing capabilities like the TPE standing skeleton.
- 'Samurai's' old DS - she lives now at Karrot's and is impersonanting the Xiaoli character - has a simpler mod with some (firmer silicone) on the soles of the feet, if I remember correctly.
Also, for a DS with the current silicone blend the same approach works to make her stand as it works for TPE dolls without standing skeleton -
relieve the heels from strain by putting the feet into solid (lace-up) boots where the load is spread across the lower leg.
In reply to Sandro
Looking at the 'for sale' section on Gibmodoll (UKLDF) forum: http://www.uklovedollforums.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10118 the damage is at the heels. I don't know but I'm assuming that there's a bolt head for the swivelling of the foot plate and this downwards facing bolt head is compressing and grinding through the soft heels if the doll is used for standing. Samurai has simply filled the heel with a harder silicone to help the doll to stand and prevent further damage. It doesn't look pretty though.
If there was no bolt or any other protrusion at the bottom of the foot plate I believe it would aid greatly to DS producing dolls that could stand... but never in heels, I am talking about flat shoes and flat feet only.
Also (this is guess work) if the foot plates were wrapped in reinforcing cloth before the silicone was poured it would provide further protection against any part of the foot plate grinding through the soles of the feet. The silicone will bind with a fibrous cloth creating a mechanical lock between the foot plate, the cloth and the silicone if done right.
Obviously user error, mistreatment etc no one can guard against but I still believe there is a simple solution to DS producing standing capable dolls.
In reply to FlashGordoll
Nice to see you here, FlashGordoll and thanks to Sandro for setting this up!
I was hoping to get a set of damaged DS foot bones from a user who had an issue with transport and got new ones from Doll Sweet but so far they have not shown up ... and I can't really ask for something that was meant as a friendly gesture in the first place.
However, I have already seen pictures and there is NO bolt going downwards in them, just one horizontal one for the downward tilt motion - note that Harems mod was to ask for exactly that - a downward bolt to take the weight, which he got made afaik.
The usual bone is a slightly curved shape of a slightly U shaped material, I'd guess a mild steel at best and is somewhat flimsy, i.e. less than an inch wide by my guess from pictures.
All in all not an unreasonable solution for something that was just meant to tilt the foot and just allowed standing the doll on her feet be accident due to the originally harder silicone mix but useless and in dire need of a redesign if standing capability is asked for.
The current bone has little support at the middle and front of the foot but its biggest problem is total lack of support for the heel.
I support the idea to include some interface between bone and outer silicone, such as cloth and/or special shaped contact areas.
Hope this helps.
@FlashGordoll & @mi6c: Thanks
@FlashGordoll & @mi6c: Thanks for dropping by
After seeing the soles of the feet of Samurai's DS-158/Neri on UKLDF, I decided not to challenge my DS-163/Alisa with standing. At least not without modifications. It still itches me, but nay…
From own experience, I can confirm reasonable standing capabilities for these dolls:
So obviously, the more lightweight a doll is, the easier standing challenges get. For a life-sized doll without modifications, 8-12 kg seem to be OK for PUR & fabric/foam; the DS-158 is specified to be ~29 kg, the DS-163 would be ~26 kg. Assuming that a (hypothetical) life-sized silicone doll with 12 kg could probably also stand without hurting herself, the interesting question would be where the threshold for standing without injuries would be - rather 15 kg or 25 kg?
To test that, we could cast a foot, design a foot plate with a skeleton stub, pour it in Dragon Skin FX‑Pro (Shore 2A) and put 10/15/20/25/30 weight onto it. Then we could repeat this with Ecoflex 00-30. That would give some insight into foot plate design and interaction with silicone softness, but not help with an existing DS.
That leads me back to two old ideas:
Above: Top of the scalpel points to the seamline separating the upper from the bottom half of the foot. The lower part would have to be an exact replica, and I could never figure out how to exactly match the old upper with the recasted lower part.
I never followed up on this idea because I never figured our how to make two exact cuts like this through silicone, so it's probably not a good idea.
Sandro
Tools
In reply to mi6c
@mi6c: btw, did you ever follow up on the alternative foot plate design you were contemplating for André last year?
Sandro
In reply to Sandro
Thanks for having me guys :)
I think there are a few valid points being made and a few things we can all agree upon.
1: The foot plate design is not a good shape for standing
2: The newer softer silicone does not support the above foot plate shape
3: It shouldn't be too hard for a company like DS to figure out a way for the dolls to be capable of standing without damage
I read a lot in the past about techniques involving silicone and whilst that makes me nothing but an armchair novice I still think some of the simpler techniques could make all the difference.
The reinforcing cloth idea I mentioned is one of those simpler techniques, I seriously think it would work well if the foot plates were flatter and no sharp bits. The fibrous cloth could be tightly wrapped and glued around the foot plates and then painted with liquid silicone before the skeleton and foam core is centred in the mould. I've seen this technique on videos and noticed it being used on other silicone dolls so its nothing new - in fact its probably considered an old technique.. What it would do is bind everything together and protect the soles of the feet from any internal 'sawing' going on within the feet from repeated standing, it would basically spread the force. If that makes sense?
Having just had another peek at the DS skeleton pictures indeed there is no downward facing bolt to my surprise... But a large hole at the heel and another towards the front of the foot plate. Since most weight is at the heel it appears the softer silicone is being pushed upwards and saws through the edges of the hole in the plate?
If there was no hole in the heel and it was covered over with cloth/foam or whatever, would it still happen? My personal feeling is, I don't think so.
Going back to the idea of a harder silicone in the sole of the foot idea: A combination of the above and a harder durometer silicone sole along with a better foot plate design would most probably create a safely standing DS doll without the need for ugly protruding screws.
From what I understand about silicone casting: the two halves of the mould are 'skinned' first (the skinning is done by either spraying or brushing layers of silicone into the mould halves before the skeleton is inserted and centred, the mould is then assembled and the final pour of silicone is poured through the neck hole). A harder durometer silicone could (in theory) be poured in the mould half with the soles of the feet after the skinning process and prior to the other steps.
If that's not possible a small hole in the outer mould (when mould halves are together) at the back of the heel would be enough to flow in enough harder silicone to cover the soles up to and just past the height of the foot plates. The hole would obviously need to be plugged before the final pour and finished after the doll is released.
Sorry for the ramble... got a bit carried away there! Ha ha!
Re: Standing capabilities and workarounds
Oh yeah. Of course the silicone will start to show similar restrictions as TPE when the blend gets softer. Wasn't thinking that standing would be affected too but it makes sense.
It was already a bit visible in the factory photos of my future DS. The heels were much when the doll was laying down.
Re: Standing capabilities and workarounds
well made it over here as well ....hello all
good to see the subject continuing to be discussed here
Ray
Re: Standing capabilities and workarounds
After talking with mi6c yesterday, we are planning two experiments. mi6c will proceed with his abstracted foot plate design, and I am going to try a regular foot skeleton. The objective is to better understand what is going on within a synthetic foot. Consider this more some kind of basic research, less applied engineering.
Step 1 in my personal battleplan is to start with a 3D printed foot skeleton:
This 3D model is courtesy of 'DrGlassDPM', https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:22628.
The above model is currently printing in PLA with 20% infill, so these plastic bones might crack much earlier than poking through the silicone, we'll see. If they break to quickly, i will print them either with more infill or solid.
To simulate muscle fibers, I am planning to wrap the bones with some kind of fabric tissue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray443.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray444.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray445.png
If I have the final object ready, I need to look for a foot to cast. I scaled the model to something between 18 to 19 cm in length, but with gauze added, it might not fit into a DS-163 foot. As above - we'll see
Sandro
Tools
Re: Standing capabilities and workarounds
Interesting
one of the problems as I see it the foot plate cannot be flexible.
the present design enables the foot to be arched so heels can be worn
therefore the foot plate ends two thirds along the foot so the present three point screw system makes sense.
It just needs this system to be be developed more... how I have not a clue
At least you're looking for an answer you and mi6c.... so thumbs up emoticon here.
Re: Standing capabilities and workarounds
Thanks for the thumbs up, some moral support helps more than you might think.
I am however not sure I get your thoughts completely with respect to wearing high heels.
If you just want her to wear them while lounging on a chair or bed - i.e. NOT putting weight onto them, the footplate design does not make much of a difference, you just have to make sure the toe section can bend enough to fit into the front and the heel joint can tilt enough to make it look good.
"High" is one of the issues with heels though, I for one would be happy to achieve what Flash's Yuuko and my Yutsuki( both Silicone Art) are capable of, namely standing in both flat shoes and "moderate" heels( about ~ 5cm) as opposed to the ~10cm considered "high" or even the pinpoint stance of a ballerina.
Now the current "crutch"( pardon, my take on it) with the 3 screw tripod is that it enables standing barefoot on the floor - so yes, that's some achievement - but little else as it will ruin socks/stockings and/or whatever she is standing on AND is an ever worse idea the more you tilt the foot to the extent of actually bending the screws and ripping the shoes.
The point Sandro was making is that god( or nature if you're non-religious) was a pretty good designer, so following his( its) lead is probably a good idea, whereas while I acknowledge and realize that I see the need to create a more simple solution to be able to handle it.
Btw, any ideas are certainly welcome, the more minds the better.
Kind regards.